This week we are joined by director and animator, John Lumgair who heads up Quirky Motion. We talk about how he got into animation and revisit the film, The Secret of Kells.
We uncover the rich themes and symbolism, from the contrast between darkness and light to the mystical character of Aisling. Drawing parallels to biblical passages and early Christian literature like "The Dream of the Rood," we reflect on the film’s blend of Christian and pagan motifs.
Check out John on Instagram
Check out the Jazz Cow Kickstarter
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Speaker 1: If you've ever heard of the Book of Kells, then
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you'll be excited for the movie that we're talking about this
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week the Secret of Kells.
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Join us this week as we revisit this film with new commentary
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and our special guest, director and animator, john Lomger.
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Speaker 2: A place where animation meets faith.
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You're listening to the Analuya Podcast and you're locked into
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another episode of the Analuya Podcast, making that
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intersection between faith and animation and those lovely
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redemptive analogies each week.
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My name is Josh and we are glad to be back with you once again,
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and I got my picnic shirt on.
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So I guess if I just lay down on the ground, you can start
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putting all your nice picnic foods and I'll just be the table
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for the day, but without any further ado.
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My lovely wife Rebecca.
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Speaker 1: Hey guys.
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Speaker 2: And we got a really special episode today.
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I want to get right into it.
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This episode is kind of a revisitation of it, because
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we've actually talked about this film before.
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It was actually during our first season of the podcast that
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we talked about this.
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Speaker 1: That has been a while .
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I guess it's a good time to come back and do a revisitation.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and we have a great guest for this
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revisitation as well.
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So, all the way from the UK, we have John Lundgaer with us.
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John, thank you so much for being on the show with us.
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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me on.
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Speaker 2: Absolutely.
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We want to have our audience to know you a little bit better,
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so we're going to ask you a few questions, get your background
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and go from there.
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Rebecca, go ahead.
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
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So first of all, you're in animation and you've got
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something new coming out, which is really exciting.
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But before we get into that, just tell us a little bit about
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yourself your background, where are you located, that kind of
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stuff.
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Speaker 3: So I live in London.
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Although I'm currently not in London, I'm in the west of
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England, just above my friend's art studio.
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I've been living in London since I was a child.
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Speaker 1: Where are you located ?
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In London, by the way?
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Speaker 3: So South London, a place called Streatham, and yeah
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, it's a a fun, interesting area to live, lots of stuff going on
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yeah, I lived there for a year getting my master's degree in
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art history and visual culture.
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Speaker 1: That was so fun.
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I was in Kensington so I'm familiar with some of the areas.
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London's really big and it all kind of has like if it's
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different culture, all the different neighborhoods, which
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is kind of fun.
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So tell us a little bit about your animation journey.
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How did you get into animation?
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Speaker 3: do they make these animations and was just
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fascinated by the process.
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I love the stories, the comedy, the comedy just I just loved so
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much.
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And then I would make flick books.
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I would do lots of drawings.
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I'd love to see the idea that they could come alive, and that
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really excited me.
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At school I was good at art and not that many other things.
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Maybe it was certainly my strongest area and ended up
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studying animation which that's the story I have, but I wouldn't
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necessarily say that's the best way to go actually to do
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animation.
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And then did a bit of freelance stuff and started a company
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doing film and animation in 2006 .
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That's what I've been doing ever since.
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Speaker 1: Wow, that's exciting.
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So you mentioned that maybe not everyone do a degree in
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animation.
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How would you suggest, if people want to get into
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animation, that they would go about doing that?
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Speaker 3: yeah, so the the thing with animation is it's not
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like law or medicine where it really matters to have the
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qualification.
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With animation, it matters what your work is.
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If you can show you're good, then that's much more useful.
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There are so many ways you can learn.
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Online you can learn from all sorts of really brilliant people
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, and then there's really good books.
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The big thing is actually doing it and practicing.
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Speaker 1: Practice, practice, practice, practice.
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That's what I've learned over my art journey too.
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Honestly, the more you do it, the better you become, because
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within animation right, there's so many different styles of
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animation yes, tons of styles and that's a really fun process
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yeah, the variety is what makes it so exciting.
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Speaker 3: The story can determine the style, so you can
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really have the right style that matches the story that needs to
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be told, and no other medium does that quite like animation.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would agree, and I'm sure we'll talk about
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that in today's movie that we'll be discussing, because it
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absolutely plays a huge role in the story.
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The animation style.
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Okay, so on average, how long does it take to animate a series
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or a movie?
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Speaker 3: It's very much a question of how long is a piece
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of string Once you've got script and storyboard.
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So the actual process of animation, that can be a big
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range because it depends how large your team is and how long
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it is, how complex it is, and so different things take different
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lengths of time to do.
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Feature films usually spend a couple of years on it.
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The project I'm doing, which is between 20 22 minutes we're
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factoring in about a year for that, but it depends.
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We'll have a smallish team.
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When you something like the Simpsons, they have a team
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working on it.
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They've got another team working on episode two.
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Lots of these things are running concurrently, which
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means that they can make things faster.
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Speaker 1: Even just one year, taking 22 minutes of screen time
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.
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That is so much work that goes into producing these types of
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short films or long films, so that's awesome.
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There's so many people that work on these projects.
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Speaking of animation, and you mentioned a project that you've
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got coming up tell us a little bit about your new project
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called Jazz Cow.
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Speaker 3: Tell us a little bit about your new project called
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Jazz Cow.
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Jazz Cow is about a jazz playing cow and he reluctantly
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leads a resistance movement to fake filters, to big tech, to
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the algorithms that are kind of controlling the world.
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And so he and his friends just want to play jazz the people in
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his area that but they want to paint paintings, they want to.
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They want to eat food that takes forever to cook, they want
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to play chess.
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They want to live in the real world.
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But then you've got this, the fake world of his nemesis, dr
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pop, and he's trying to get everybody just scrolling on
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their apps, and so that's the setup of the series.
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And then the thing we're trying to raise money for is a pilot,
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which is going to be a heist episode, where Jazz Cow's trying
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to get his sacks back and he has to fight the system without
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using the tools of the system.
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So it's a silly comedy with some maybe deeper themes on the
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surface.
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Speaker 1: Just that quick synopsis that you gave.
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I could really tell that there's a promotion of living in
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the present moment and not so much in the social media apps
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and things that can really distract us from the here and
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now.
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So that's really cool.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really an interesting premise.
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I mean, as soon as you said Unclosed Jazz, I went sold
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Awesome.
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Really an interesting friend.
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This I mean, as soon as you said an enclosed jazz, I went
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sold awesome.
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Well, thank you for all that information.
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So we're going to go ahead and get into our discussion.
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As I mentioned earlier, this will be about a film that we
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discussed during our first season of the podcast, and that
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is the secret of the Last time.
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We focused primarily on the animation, which we'll still do,
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and we also talked a little bit about the history.
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I think we'll delve a bit more into that as well.
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I guess I just want to get Erde's initial reactions of the
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Secret of the Kells, whether you've seen it many times or
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this was your first time.
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So, john, for you about the Secret of Kells what do you like
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about it?
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What do you dislike?
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What are some key takeaways that you got from it?
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Speaker 3: so I absolutely love the film.
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I think seen it a number of times and one of the things when
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I first saw it, I loved the visual style of it.
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I loved the fact that it was.
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It was unique.
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It wasn't trying to be disney, it had a really strong graphic
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style and the way it fitted with the actual book that it was
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about.
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All the way all that meshed together I just thought was
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brilliant, and so that drew me in.
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And then, after the initial drawing in, I think the themes
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that underpin it are brilliant.
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They totally resonate with me.
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So I've only got real praise for it.
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There's not much I can say negatively about it at all.
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Nice.
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Speaker 2: Rebecca, how about you?
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Speaker 1: I've seen it multiple times now and it's one of my
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favorite animation movies, particularly from an indie
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studio, and all of their work is fantastic.
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I forget the name of the studio but they're an Irish animation
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studio and they're incredible.
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Such a rich story.
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In the Secret of Kells they mesh the history of what we
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believe happened to the book and put it beautifully in this fun
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and entertaining story that people of all ages can enjoy.
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I will say for little children it could be a bit scary.
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There's a run-in with a pagan god, pre-christian god, called
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Kromkrik.
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That seems a bit scary.
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I will say I mean, I'm what?
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33 years old and it's still a little bit scary.
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I'm like, ooh, I don't know all of the details that they put in
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about even the animation style being a nod towards the art of
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the time.
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This would be the late 8th, early 9th century.
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They didn't really have a concept of perspective in their
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art and so you can see that in the Secret of Kells things look
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flat.
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They've pulled it up.
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When we would draw it today, we would draw the perspective.
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In the Secret of Kells the perspective was off and that's
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on purpose.
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I really liked that nod to what was going on in art at that
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time.
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That was really cool.
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The themes that they pulled in from the book.
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I was like, yeah, it was great, it's great.
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From the book I was like ah, it was great, it's great,
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resonating off of what both of you have said.
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Speaker 2: I've seen this a few times and it just still amazes
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me.
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Each time the Secret of Kells is, of course, referring to what
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we think might happen to the Book of Kells, in which I
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referred to in our episode.
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I think the sub header was the first graphic novel of the
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gospel.
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But yeah, I love the animation style, the whole story and it's
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not that long either.
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It's only a little bit over an hour.
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So even though it's not full length by other standards, it's
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still a great film.
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It tells you a lot within a short amount of time.
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Really love it.
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Before we get too far into it, for those that may not be
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familiar with the Secret of Kells, rebecca, can you give us
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a bit of a synopsis?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'll read the synopsis that we've already
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got down, because I could go for a really long time on the
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synopsis here.
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Twelve-year-old Brendan, who must fight Vikings and a serpent
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god to find a crystal and complete the legendary Book of
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Kells.
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In order to finish Brother Aidan's book, brendan must
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overcome his deepest fears in a secret quest that will take him
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beyond the abbey walls and into the enchanted forest where
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dangerous mystical creatures hide.
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Very interesting synopsis.
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I hadn't read that before.
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I mean, it's true, yeah, everything is true and the whole
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story itself.
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It never really talks about what exactly the Book of Kells
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is.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, they do a nod to it.
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Brother Aidan says when he's talking to the abbots concerned
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about the wall because of the Vikings that are going to come
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in, and Brother Aidan kind of sees through that and says, well
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, no, this is important, this brings hope.
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So even those who are not believers can get a correlation
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of it.
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I want to go through a few themes.
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We have some notes here.
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Rebecca, do you want to start us off with one of the key
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themes that you have brought out ?
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Speaker 1: Sure.
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So first of all, what is the Book of Kells?
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The Book of Kells is an illuminated manuscript of the
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four Gospels from the late 8th, early 9th century.
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The short history which is included in the movie is that
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it's begun on the island of Iona , which is a little island off
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the coast of Scotland, came in and destroyed the Abbey.
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One person got away.
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This would be Brother Aidan.
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In the story he flees to Ireland, to Kells, the Abbey at
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Kells.
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That is where the book is finished, which is why it's
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called the Book of Kells.
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So main themes oh man, bringing light into the darkness, I
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think, is the main theme of this little movie, and banishing the
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darkness with light.
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It is the book, the gospels that bring the light and hope.
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That is the overarching theme of the story.
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I don't know if the animators who created this story were
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Christian.
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I don't know what their intention was, but that's what I
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see as a Christian.
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It's the hope of Christ, banishing the darkness, battling
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the demons inside of you.
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Those are the main themes that I see.
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Speaker 2: And to bounce off of vanishing in the darkness and
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coming forth the light.
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We see that really literally when Brendan goes into the
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forest outside the walls for the first time and we have these
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dark wolves coming at him, and then we have the spirit of that
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forest, who we later learn is Ashley.
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Speaker 1: Yes, when all the wolves sit up really straight
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and they're just like looking around and then boom, they
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scatter and it was just like wow , I don't know something.
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That was just really satisfying .
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Speaker 2: They take notice.
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This is something that commands attention and authority.
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It reminds me of the passage where there's a picture where in
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the demons die at Jesus' feet because they know who he is and
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they flee whenever it's commanded.
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We sometimes, you know, for the prayer that you know, hey, flee
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in Jesus' name, and that commands power and authority for
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any demonic spirit that might be present.
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Speaker 3: So, John, for you, any other themes that you had
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chosen or you would like to at the beginning or fairly early on
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in the film there's a quote that says beauty thrives in the
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most unlikely place.
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So there was this idea of beauty.
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The book isn't just bright and powerful, but it's beautiful.
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Beauty is contrasted and it's got almost like this garden of
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eden field, because you've got this, the garden that they're in
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, but then outside is chaos, and so see this kind of idea where
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you've got the center, and then you've got this marginal world.
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The pagan gods are real and they still have power, and yet
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they've got this kind of center where everything is safe but
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they've got to maintain it.
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And you've got this thing of borders, because obviously the
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abbot's trying to build up all the walls to keep them safe.
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But actually the message has to get out and it's how much of the
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fringe should you let in?
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Should you let in Ashley?
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And what is Ashley?
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How does that fit within the ideas that you would find in the
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gospels?
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She's not a demon, but what is she Like?
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The world of enchantment, in a way, particularly in our era,
00:16:50
when the last few years I think there's been more openness in
00:16:53
society to the idea of a more enchanted world.
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So this idea of this fringe, that's a bit enchanted, but who
00:17:02
knows what's going on with it.
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I find really interesting.
00:17:04
So that's another layer.
00:17:06
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
00:17:07
And what you said trying to keep up the walls to keep people
00:17:11
safe that there is this message inside of it that needs to get
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out.
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I think all Christians have made this statement.
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It's like oh yeah, saints on fire for Jesus, and I love the
00:17:22
gospel, but we should just give it to ourselves.
00:17:25
The commandment is to share the good news, so we've got to take
00:17:28
it out of the walls of us and spread it to others, more now
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than ever.
00:17:32
Also piggybacking off of Ashley , I wouldn't classify her as a
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demon, but what is she?
00:17:39
Is she a forest spirit?
00:17:40
Is she a fairy, as Brendan suspects that she is?
00:17:44
In the beginning of the movie we hear something to the effect
00:17:50
of that.
00:17:50
You know, I've existed through many ages.
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Is she an angel?
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Is she a deity?
00:17:57
Rebeccabecca, do you have any thoughts on that?
00:18:00
Speaker 1: yeah, it is really interesting to think about what
00:18:03
is ashley and you know, like you said, john, how does she fit in
00:18:06
?
00:18:06
She's one of the more interesting pieces of this story
00:18:10
to think about.
00:18:10
I tend to think that she talks about it as her forest, and I
00:18:16
think she is kind of like the spirit of the forest.
00:18:39
She represents nature, because there's this idea that you can
00:18:43
communicate with God and experience his presence in
00:18:47
nature, and perhaps that's kind of what Ashley is doing is
00:18:52
almost like a guide into how you explore the world.
00:18:56
She's a very spiritual being, which I find interesting and,
00:19:01
john, I love that you mentioned that in our world, it seems like
00:19:05
people are really waking up to spiritual aspects of life in
00:19:11
general.
00:19:11
I see that too, even in the psychology world.
00:19:15
It seems like we've been in the fifth wave and that's all about
00:19:19
neuroscience.
00:19:19
I think we're kind of moving into really wanting spirituality
00:19:24
to be integrated into our lives , whatever that looks like.
00:19:27
It doesn't have to be Christianity, it could be
00:19:29
Buddhism or Hinduism or whatever , but just a general awareness
00:19:34
of spirituality, which I find interesting.
00:19:38
Speaker 3: And I don't think it was like that a few years ago.
00:19:40
I think there's been quite a shift.
00:19:42
I was at a book launch and I thought it would be
00:19:45
hyper-secular and the guy, although he didn't believe in
00:19:49
any god, believed that there were thousands of unseen
00:19:54
creatures everywhere that were spiritual and I thought that is
00:19:58
the world that surrounds Kells.
00:20:00
In a way it's interesting.
00:20:02
The Anglo-Saxon Christians really debated what they do with
00:20:07
the old gods.
00:20:08
Are they nothing?
00:20:09
Are they demons?
00:20:10
Are they different kinds of entities?
00:20:12
There was a kind of a debate going on at the time because I
00:20:16
guess they had to try to put things together now as
00:20:19
Christians, with the world that they'd had before.
00:20:21
A lot of people today go, oh you know, they kind of think
00:20:24
that they weren't as Christian as I think they were.
00:20:27
Speaker 1: They were really wrestling, I agree with you,
00:20:30
because there was so much trying to come in and take away their
00:20:34
faith in a way or like morph and change it.
00:20:37
I'm sure they got great comfort from books of the New Testament
00:20:41
, assuming they had access to them.
00:20:43
But the letters to the Corinthians I'm sure they got
00:20:46
great comfort from that, just because it's all about what do
00:20:50
you do with that?
00:20:50
What do you do with pagan gods?
00:20:52
How do you live your life?
00:20:54
The letters from Paul dealt so much with that.
00:20:58
How do you integrate all of that?
00:20:59
Interesting questions.
00:21:01
Speaker 2: Let's go into a bit of the history.
00:21:04
Um gonna let you guys have the lead on this, because you're
00:21:07
much well versed in it than I am rebecca or john john, I would
00:21:11
love to hear from you if there's anything.
00:21:13
Speaker 1: I think I've talked already a little bit about broad
00:21:16
history, but from your perspective, was there anything
00:21:20
else that was left out?
00:21:22
Speaker 3: I don't know a huge amount.
00:21:23
I know more about King Alfred and what was happening in
00:21:28
England, but it mirrors quite a lot of the things that happen in
00:21:30
the world today.
00:21:31
We've got a small Christian community, external groups in
00:21:36
this case the Vikings, norsemen coming in to kill and to steal
00:21:41
from them.
00:21:42
I thought it was really interesting that King Alfred was
00:21:45
translating the Bible, but he was also a military man trying
00:21:49
to protect the country.
00:21:50
He was also trying to figure out where he's fusing the old
00:21:54
Germanic codes and then the Bible and how was he putting
00:21:58
those things together?
00:21:59
I think there's just that era of history.
00:22:02
There's lots of well, it's a forming of a people.
00:22:06
Really, I know more of the English side than the Irish, but
00:22:10
I imagine it's the same kind of process.
00:22:12
Something I wrote down and wanted to mention was I remember
00:22:16
, when I was about eight, someone reading the poem the
00:22:19
Dream of the Rude and rude is the word for cross in
00:22:24
Anglo-Saxon, and although it was an Anglo-Saxon poem, it was so
00:22:28
creative and weird that I was just like, wow, this is
00:22:31
incredible.
00:22:31
It's got all these pagan motifs , but they're put under Christ.
00:22:36
The whole poem is about the cross itself.
00:22:39
The actual wood is the woods experience, experience which is
00:22:42
just such a weird take on these things.
00:22:45
So I think there's just all these ideas that are flowing
00:22:48
around at the time, because you get that with beowulf as well,
00:22:52
which is similar period where they're getting all these pagan
00:22:56
ideas and they're trying to work with a thoroughly christian,
00:23:00
but they're using these pagan ideas, almost baptizing them in
00:23:04
a way.
00:23:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we can see.
00:23:06
Even too, it can be really dangerous to do that.
00:23:11
We can see that even today with certain large Christian
00:23:15
organizations trying to take more New Age views and practices
00:23:21
and somehow baptize them and make them Christian, and they
00:23:26
just aren't.
00:23:27
That can be difficult.
00:23:30
But things like meditation, which most of the world views as
00:23:34
secular and not Christian, is actually a Christian idea.
00:23:38
It is mentioned in the Bible, meditating on scripture.
00:23:41
It just looks different from what Buddhist meditation looks
00:23:47
like.
00:23:47
I think finding similarities is perfectly fine as long as it's
00:23:54
scripturally based.
00:23:55
The people of the time during this historical period had some
00:23:59
difficulties trying to do that as well.
00:24:01
Speaker 3: I'm sure we've all heard how easter was something
00:24:07
in the pagan world yeah, although a lot of that stuff has
00:24:09
been invented by atheists in order to debunk.
00:24:14
And then you look into it and you realize these things were a
00:24:16
lot more christian than they've given credit for it that's nice
00:24:19
to hear I heard a talk about christmas trees and they're
00:24:23
saying oh you know, it's really pagan.
00:24:24
But actually Boniface, who was the guy that cut down the
00:24:28
Christmas tree?
00:24:29
He did it to prove that this pagan god wasn't real.
00:24:32
So it wasn't a pagan thing, it was actually an anti-pagan thing
00:24:34
.
00:24:34
Then people years later go oh I see you're doing this pagan
00:24:38
thing and it's like, well, it's not actually pagan.
00:24:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what's interesting too, I find with
00:24:43
symbols like that, like a Christmas tree, is you kind of
00:24:47
make them what you want it to be .
00:24:49
It's kind of like how the Bible talks about you know.
00:24:53
It's the love of money that is the root of all evil, and money
00:24:58
itself can't be evil.
00:25:00
It's an easy misinterpretation.
00:25:02
It's an inanimate object.
00:25:05
It is neither good nor evil.
00:25:07
It is what we make of it that is good or evil, and same thing
00:25:12
with a Christmas tree or some of these other symbols.
00:25:14
You take it how you want to take it.
00:25:17
I think being careful too, though, about the scripture
00:25:21
talks about not causing your brother to stumble or be a
00:25:24
stumbling block for your brother .
00:25:26
Keeping that in mind, I think, is also important.
00:25:28
You mentioned a poem, which I thought was really fun, about
00:25:32
the cross from the woods perspective Fascinating.
00:25:35
It sounds really interesting.
00:25:36
I may go look that up, but there was another poem that's
00:25:38
actually nodded to here in the Secret of Kells, and that is the
00:25:44
cat.
00:25:45
Did you pick up on this, john?
00:25:47
Speaker 3: No, I didn't.
00:25:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, so his name was Pangerbon.
00:25:51
Pangerbon is an old Irish poem that a monk wrote about his
00:25:58
white cat.
00:25:59
Bon means white and Panger was the cat's name, so it's white
00:26:05
cat or white Panger.
00:26:06
It was an ode to the cat of like, oh you're so wonderful,
00:26:11
panger Bon, which I thought was really funny.
00:26:15
And how.
00:26:16
Even in the art of the Book of Kells there's quite a few
00:26:21
references to cats and mice, and I think at one point the mice
00:26:26
are even fighting over a Eucharist, which was pretty
00:26:29
funny.
00:26:29
So yeah, I thought that was a really fun little nod to the
00:26:34
time period.
00:26:36
Speaker 2: So all this talk of expelling the darkness and the
00:26:40
light, that's the overall theme.
00:26:41
The overall theme is hope.
00:26:42
Have either of you seen the actual book of Kells or a copy
00:26:48
of it?
00:26:49
Speaker 1: Yes, I have seen the physical copy.
00:26:52
It's kept in Trinity College in Dublin, Ireland.
00:26:56
In the story they were talking about, you know like be blinded
00:27:01
by its beauty and sinners being saved, which is, of course, very
00:27:06
dramatic, but there is something ethereal about it.
00:27:11
It is absolutely gorgeous to see, particularly the gold they
00:27:16
used.
00:27:16
I don't remember if it was gold paint or gold leaf, but it
00:27:20
still shimmers.
00:27:20
It's beautiful, beautiful, and they keep the it's in this teeny
00:27:25
, tiny little room.
00:27:26
They only let so many people in at a time and it's really dark
00:27:29
to protect the pages.
00:27:30
They change the page every so often, so if you go multiple
00:27:34
times you might get to see different pages of the book.
00:27:37
It is gorgeous.
00:27:40
It's worth it to make a trip to Dublin to go see it.
00:27:44
Speaker 3: I've not seen it.
00:27:44
I'd love to.
00:27:45
I've seen reproductions in books, but not the actual book.
00:27:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's worth it, john, If you can get over there
00:27:52
to Dublin.
00:27:53
Speaker 3: It's not far from us really.
00:27:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot closer than we are.
00:27:58
Speaker 2: Let's talk about the character of Brendan a little
00:28:01
bit.
00:28:02
He is a boy living in the Abbott.
00:28:05
He doesn't have a quote-unquote family.
00:28:07
Do they say whatever happened to him?
00:28:09
Or he just doesn't have parents .
00:28:12
Speaker 1: I don't think they said specifically what happened,
00:28:14
just that he doesn't have parents.
00:28:15
He tells Ashley at one point that he doesn't have family, but
00:28:19
he does have an uncle.
00:28:20
Yeah, yeah, I thought that was interesting.
00:28:22
Speaker 2: Maybe an absent uncle at the time.
00:28:25
Speaker 3: Although the uncle is doing his best in his own mind
00:28:28
to protect him, he might not be getting it right.
00:28:31
His motive is good.
00:28:32
It forms a lovely connection with him and Ashley.
00:28:34
That's the thing that tips her into engaging with him rather
00:28:39
than seeing him as a threat.
00:28:41
Speaker 2: Rebecca, when you were reading the synopsis, we
00:28:44
know that Ren Hessell has come over his fears, come over his
00:28:46
doubts.
00:28:47
That is his own personal journey throughout this entire
00:28:51
movie and he wants to be an illustrator, but he doesn't
00:28:56
think that he has the talent to do so until he starts staying
00:29:02
more in touch with Brother Aiden , and Brother Aiden knows that
00:29:05
he has a keen interest in what he's doing and he says if you
00:29:10
want to help, I will teach you how to scribe.
00:29:13
We'll get the feathers from the goose to make the writing
00:29:17
utensils and we'll make the ink Towards the end of the movie.
00:29:21
We this like time of like regression, where aiden and
00:29:26
rendon go out from the wall after the vikings have come in
00:29:31
and invaded and they're like a house out in the woods and you
00:29:35
see them working on this continuously.
00:29:37
There's a long passage of time because we see like very grown
00:29:41
up rendon by the time that he comes back to the abbey to see
00:29:46
his uncle.
00:29:46
Do you know, time wise, how long that took?
00:29:51
Speaker 1: I would imagine he was probably eight when he was
00:29:55
living at the abbey and then, I don't know, it seemed like it
00:30:00
could have been 10 years more like 20 maybe 10 to 20.
00:30:03
Yeah, so he could have been 28 by the time he came back.
00:30:06
But yeah, it didn't look like there was a specific time.
00:30:10
Speaker 2: I didn't pick up on anything anyway is there any
00:30:12
other scene that stood out to you in this movie?
00:30:15
Speaker 1: to go off of what you started talking about, josh,
00:30:18
with brendan.
00:30:19
He, he does.
00:30:21
He, you're right, he really does struggle within himself to
00:30:24
become an illustrator, to think he's good enough.
00:30:27
We all talk about him fighting our demons.
00:30:30
In this case, he actually literally went and did that.
00:30:34
He went into the cave of Krom Kruik, if you want to say he's
00:30:38
one of the villains.
00:30:39
In a way, it almost seems like he's fighting with himself,
00:30:43
though, because it's not until he goes and defeats Kromkruik or
00:30:49
the serpent, which is interesting in and of itself, to
00:30:52
sort of nod to the devil, satan , evil, whatever you want to
00:30:56
call it.
00:30:56
I know it has different significance in pagan symbolism.
00:31:00
I don't know what that is, but I know it's different.
00:31:03
So he goes in and Brendan really defeats that part, and
00:31:07
then when he comes out on the other side, he feels more
00:31:10
confident and he can create the art now.
00:31:13
So it's like that's kind of his journey of feeling more
00:31:18
confident about himself.
00:31:19
Speaker 3: That makes sense.
00:31:20
It's like the coming of age thing.
00:31:21
You have to go through struggle .
00:31:23
He has to leave the Abbey in order to find out who he is,
00:31:28
what he's doing, so he can't just be.
00:31:31
He'll never be able to do that until he leaves, until he works
00:31:36
out who he is, and then come back.
00:31:38
And it's the encouragement of Aidan that is the real thing
00:31:42
there, because they both see value in the book, which I think
00:31:46
his uncle knows, but he's forgotten.
00:31:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, and how we can be so often like the abbot in
00:31:53
that we forget the hope that the word brings and we can become
00:31:58
so focused on building up the walls of our heart and of our
00:32:02
lives, really shutting the darkness out or trying to in our
00:32:07
own strength, when really, if we just rely on the hope of the
00:32:12
Gospels and being in community with God, that's where true
00:32:17
strength comes from, not from ourselves and what we can do.
00:32:20
And the abbot gets it in the end he does, and hopefully so do
00:32:25
we.
00:32:27
Speaker 2: John, any points that you want to make sure that we
00:32:30
touch upon that we haven't already the idea of imagination.
00:32:33
Speaker 3: The faith is an imaginative faith.
00:32:35
They're not just copyists of the bible, which would be a
00:32:39
perfectly legitimate exercise and more efficient.
00:32:43
Now they are taking it and they are creating a beautiful object
00:32:48
, an imaginative object, and at the heart of this is imagination
00:32:54
.
00:32:54
They're not going to be able to push back the vikings who
00:32:57
eventually became christian right?
00:32:59
I often say to some of my somali friends that talk about
00:33:03
violence in their culture and say well, you know how peaceful
00:33:07
the swed are.
00:33:08
That wasn't what they were.
00:33:10
They've gone from being like we don't get involved in new wars
00:33:18
today compared with what they were.
00:33:19
And I think that it's the imaginative.
00:33:20
So it's not just.
00:33:20
Here is the truth in a beautiful wrapper.
00:33:23
That's really important.
00:33:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that goes along with Jesus telling
00:33:28
stories and parables.
00:33:29
He was using his creativity to share the gospel and in the same
00:33:33
way, the monks were using beauty and creativity to share
00:33:39
the gospel as well.
00:33:40
I think the early Christians really leaned into creativity
00:33:46
and imagination and partnership with God more than we do today.
00:33:53
Maybe that's what it is, but it feels like that attention to
00:33:58
detail and beauty that is still used today in our movies and
00:34:03
other art that we produce, but they truly knew how to partner
00:34:08
with God and create something absolutely stunning.
00:34:14
Speaker 2: So we hope this episode has been a big
00:34:16
encouragement to you, maybe a bit of a history lesson as well.
00:34:19
We want to thank John for being with us today.
00:34:22
John, for those who want to keep up with you or find out
00:34:26
more information about Jazz Cow, where can they go?
00:34:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the best place for jazz cow is jazz
00:34:31
cowcouk, jazz cowcouk, and there you can find link to a
00:34:38
newsletter.
00:34:39
You can find the notify me when we launch on kickstarter button
00:34:44
and read a bit about jazz cow, my company's quirky motion
00:34:49
q-u-i-r-k-y, m-o-t-i-o-n.
00:34:52
That's where our social media stuff is.
00:34:54
Feel free to drop me a message and, um, I, I will respond.
00:35:00
Probably I'm not very good at it, but I will respond.
00:35:04
I'll intend to anyway.
00:35:08
Speaker 2: Well, we'll have the links to all of that down in the
00:35:11
description.
00:35:12
Go ahead and support that project.
00:35:14
Keep up with what you're doing.
00:35:15
Just stay up to the know Until next time.
00:35:20
Keep those halos shiny and stay holy, my friends you.
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