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Speaker 1: If you've ever heard of the Book of Kells, then

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you'll be excited for the movie that we're talking about this

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week the Secret of Kells.

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Join us this week as we revisit this film with new commentary

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and our special guest, director and animator, john Lomger.

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Speaker 2: A place where animation meets faith.

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You're listening to the Analuya Podcast and you're locked into

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another episode of the Analuya Podcast, making that

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intersection between faith and animation and those lovely

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redemptive analogies each week.

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My name is Josh and we are glad to be back with you once again,

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and I got my picnic shirt on.

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So I guess if I just lay down on the ground, you can start

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putting all your nice picnic foods and I'll just be the table

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for the day, but without any further ado.

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My lovely wife Rebecca.

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Speaker 1: Hey guys.

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Speaker 2: And we got a really special episode today.

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I want to get right into it.

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This episode is kind of a revisitation of it, because

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we've actually talked about this film before.

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It was actually during our first season of the podcast that

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we talked about this.

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Speaker 1: That has been a while .

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I guess it's a good time to come back and do a revisitation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and we have a great guest for this

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revisitation as well.

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So, all the way from the UK, we have John Lundgaer with us.

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John, thank you so much for being on the show with us.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me on.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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We want to have our audience to know you a little bit better,

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so we're going to ask you a few questions, get your background

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and go from there.

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Rebecca, go ahead.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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So first of all, you're in animation and you've got

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something new coming out, which is really exciting.

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But before we get into that, just tell us a little bit about

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yourself your background, where are you located, that kind of

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stuff.

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Speaker 3: So I live in London.

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Although I'm currently not in London, I'm in the west of

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England, just above my friend's art studio.

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I've been living in London since I was a child.

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Speaker 1: Where are you located ?

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In London, by the way?

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Speaker 3: So South London, a place called Streatham, and yeah

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, it's a a fun, interesting area to live, lots of stuff going on

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yeah, I lived there for a year getting my master's degree in

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art history and visual culture.

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Speaker 1: That was so fun.

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I was in Kensington so I'm familiar with some of the areas.

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London's really big and it all kind of has like if it's

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different culture, all the different neighborhoods, which

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is kind of fun.

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So tell us a little bit about your animation journey.

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How did you get into animation?

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Speaker 3: do they make these animations and was just

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fascinated by the process.

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I love the stories, the comedy, the comedy just I just loved so

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much.

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And then I would make flick books.

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I would do lots of drawings.

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I'd love to see the idea that they could come alive, and that

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really excited me.

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At school I was good at art and not that many other things.

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Maybe it was certainly my strongest area and ended up

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studying animation which that's the story I have, but I wouldn't

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necessarily say that's the best way to go actually to do

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animation.

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And then did a bit of freelance stuff and started a company

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doing film and animation in 2006 .

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That's what I've been doing ever since.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that's exciting.

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So you mentioned that maybe not everyone do a degree in

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animation.

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How would you suggest, if people want to get into

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animation, that they would go about doing that?

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Speaker 3: yeah, so the the thing with animation is it's not

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like law or medicine where it really matters to have the

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qualification.

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With animation, it matters what your work is.

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If you can show you're good, then that's much more useful.

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There are so many ways you can learn.

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Online you can learn from all sorts of really brilliant people

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, and then there's really good books.

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The big thing is actually doing it and practicing.

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Speaker 1: Practice, practice, practice, practice.

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That's what I've learned over my art journey too.

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Honestly, the more you do it, the better you become, because

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within animation right, there's so many different styles of

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animation yes, tons of styles and that's a really fun process

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yeah, the variety is what makes it so exciting.

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Speaker 3: The story can determine the style, so you can

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really have the right style that matches the story that needs to

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be told, and no other medium does that quite like animation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would agree, and I'm sure we'll talk about

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that in today's movie that we'll be discussing, because it

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absolutely plays a huge role in the story.

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The animation style.

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Okay, so on average, how long does it take to animate a series

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or a movie?

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Speaker 3: It's very much a question of how long is a piece

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of string Once you've got script and storyboard.

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So the actual process of animation, that can be a big

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range because it depends how large your team is and how long

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it is, how complex it is, and so different things take different

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lengths of time to do.

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Feature films usually spend a couple of years on it.

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The project I'm doing, which is between 20 22 minutes we're

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factoring in about a year for that, but it depends.

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We'll have a smallish team.

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When you something like the Simpsons, they have a team

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working on it.

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They've got another team working on episode two.

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Lots of these things are running concurrently, which

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means that they can make things faster.

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Speaker 1: Even just one year, taking 22 minutes of screen time

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.

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That is so much work that goes into producing these types of

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short films or long films, so that's awesome.

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There's so many people that work on these projects.

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Speaking of animation, and you mentioned a project that you've

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got coming up tell us a little bit about your new project

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called Jazz Cow.

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Speaker 3: Tell us a little bit about your new project called

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Jazz Cow.

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Jazz Cow is about a jazz playing cow and he reluctantly

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leads a resistance movement to fake filters, to big tech, to

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the algorithms that are kind of controlling the world.

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And so he and his friends just want to play jazz the people in

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his area that but they want to paint paintings, they want to.

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They want to eat food that takes forever to cook, they want

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to play chess.

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They want to live in the real world.

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But then you've got this, the fake world of his nemesis, dr

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pop, and he's trying to get everybody just scrolling on

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their apps, and so that's the setup of the series.

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And then the thing we're trying to raise money for is a pilot,

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which is going to be a heist episode, where Jazz Cow's trying

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to get his sacks back and he has to fight the system without

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using the tools of the system.

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So it's a silly comedy with some maybe deeper themes on the

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surface.

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Speaker 1: Just that quick synopsis that you gave.

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I could really tell that there's a promotion of living in

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the present moment and not so much in the social media apps

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and things that can really distract us from the here and

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now.

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So that's really cool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really an interesting premise.

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I mean, as soon as you said Unclosed Jazz, I went sold

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Awesome.

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Really an interesting friend.

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This I mean, as soon as you said an enclosed jazz, I went

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sold awesome.

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Well, thank you for all that information.

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So we're going to go ahead and get into our discussion.

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As I mentioned earlier, this will be about a film that we

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discussed during our first season of the podcast, and that

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is the secret of the Last time.

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We focused primarily on the animation, which we'll still do,

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and we also talked a little bit about the history.

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I think we'll delve a bit more into that as well.

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I guess I just want to get Erde's initial reactions of the

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Secret of the Kells, whether you've seen it many times or

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this was your first time.

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So, john, for you about the Secret of Kells what do you like

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about it?

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What do you dislike?

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What are some key takeaways that you got from it?

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Speaker 3: so I absolutely love the film.

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I think seen it a number of times and one of the things when

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I first saw it, I loved the visual style of it.

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I loved the fact that it was.

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It was unique.

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It wasn't trying to be disney, it had a really strong graphic

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style and the way it fitted with the actual book that it was

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about.

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All the way all that meshed together I just thought was

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brilliant, and so that drew me in.

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And then, after the initial drawing in, I think the themes

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that underpin it are brilliant.

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They totally resonate with me.

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So I've only got real praise for it.

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There's not much I can say negatively about it at all.

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Nice.

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Speaker 2: Rebecca, how about you?

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Speaker 1: I've seen it multiple times now and it's one of my

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favorite animation movies, particularly from an indie

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studio, and all of their work is fantastic.

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I forget the name of the studio but they're an Irish animation

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studio and they're incredible.

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Such a rich story.

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In the Secret of Kells they mesh the history of what we

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believe happened to the book and put it beautifully in this fun

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and entertaining story that people of all ages can enjoy.

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I will say for little children it could be a bit scary.

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There's a run-in with a pagan god, pre-christian god, called

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Kromkrik.

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That seems a bit scary.

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I will say I mean, I'm what?

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33 years old and it's still a little bit scary.

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I'm like, ooh, I don't know all of the details that they put in

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about even the animation style being a nod towards the art of

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the time.

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This would be the late 8th, early 9th century.

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They didn't really have a concept of perspective in their

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art and so you can see that in the Secret of Kells things look

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flat.

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They've pulled it up.

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When we would draw it today, we would draw the perspective.

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In the Secret of Kells the perspective was off and that's

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on purpose.

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I really liked that nod to what was going on in art at that

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time.

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That was really cool.

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The themes that they pulled in from the book.

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I was like, yeah, it was great, it's great.

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From the book I was like ah, it was great, it's great,

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resonating off of what both of you have said.

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Speaker 2: I've seen this a few times and it just still amazes

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me.

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Each time the Secret of Kells is, of course, referring to what

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we think might happen to the Book of Kells, in which I

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referred to in our episode.

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I think the sub header was the first graphic novel of the

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gospel.

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But yeah, I love the animation style, the whole story and it's

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not that long either.

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It's only a little bit over an hour.

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So even though it's not full length by other standards, it's

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still a great film.

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It tells you a lot within a short amount of time.

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Really love it.

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Before we get too far into it, for those that may not be

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familiar with the Secret of Kells, rebecca, can you give us

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a bit of a synopsis?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'll read the synopsis that we've already

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got down, because I could go for a really long time on the

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synopsis here.

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Twelve-year-old Brendan, who must fight Vikings and a serpent

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god to find a crystal and complete the legendary Book of

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Kells.

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In order to finish Brother Aidan's book, brendan must

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overcome his deepest fears in a secret quest that will take him

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beyond the abbey walls and into the enchanted forest where

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dangerous mystical creatures hide.

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Very interesting synopsis.

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I hadn't read that before.

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I mean, it's true, yeah, everything is true and the whole

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story itself.

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It never really talks about what exactly the Book of Kells

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is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they do a nod to it.

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Brother Aidan says when he's talking to the abbots concerned

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about the wall because of the Vikings that are going to come

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in, and Brother Aidan kind of sees through that and says, well

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, no, this is important, this brings hope.

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So even those who are not believers can get a correlation

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of it.

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I want to go through a few themes.

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We have some notes here.

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Rebecca, do you want to start us off with one of the key

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themes that you have brought out ?

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Speaker 1: Sure.

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So first of all, what is the Book of Kells?

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The Book of Kells is an illuminated manuscript of the

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four Gospels from the late 8th, early 9th century.

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The short history which is included in the movie is that

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it's begun on the island of Iona , which is a little island off

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the coast of Scotland, came in and destroyed the Abbey.

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One person got away.

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This would be Brother Aidan.

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In the story he flees to Ireland, to Kells, the Abbey at

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Kells.

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That is where the book is finished, which is why it's

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called the Book of Kells.

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So main themes oh man, bringing light into the darkness, I

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think, is the main theme of this little movie, and banishing the

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darkness with light.

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It is the book, the gospels that bring the light and hope.

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That is the overarching theme of the story.

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I don't know if the animators who created this story were

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Christian.

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I don't know what their intention was, but that's what I

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see as a Christian.

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It's the hope of Christ, banishing the darkness, battling

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the demons inside of you.

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Those are the main themes that I see.

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Speaker 2: And to bounce off of vanishing in the darkness and

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coming forth the light.

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We see that really literally when Brendan goes into the

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forest outside the walls for the first time and we have these

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dark wolves coming at him, and then we have the spirit of that

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forest, who we later learn is Ashley.

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Speaker 1: Yes, when all the wolves sit up really straight

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and they're just like looking around and then boom, they

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scatter and it was just like wow , I don't know something.

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That was just really satisfying .

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Speaker 2: They take notice.

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This is something that commands attention and authority.

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It reminds me of the passage where there's a picture where in

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the demons die at Jesus' feet because they know who he is and

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they flee whenever it's commanded.

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We sometimes, you know, for the prayer that you know, hey, flee

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in Jesus' name, and that commands power and authority for

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any demonic spirit that might be present.

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Speaker 3: So, John, for you, any other themes that you had

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chosen or you would like to at the beginning or fairly early on

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in the film there's a quote that says beauty thrives in the

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most unlikely place.

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So there was this idea of beauty.

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The book isn't just bright and powerful, but it's beautiful.

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Beauty is contrasted and it's got almost like this garden of

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eden field, because you've got this, the garden that they're in

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, but then outside is chaos, and so see this kind of idea where

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you've got the center, and then you've got this marginal world.

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The pagan gods are real and they still have power, and yet

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they've got this kind of center where everything is safe but

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they've got to maintain it.

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And you've got this thing of borders, because obviously the

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abbot's trying to build up all the walls to keep them safe.

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But actually the message has to get out and it's how much of the

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fringe should you let in?

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Should you let in Ashley?

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And what is Ashley?

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How does that fit within the ideas that you would find in the

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gospels?

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She's not a demon, but what is she Like?

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The world of enchantment, in a way, particularly in our era,

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when the last few years I think there's been more openness in

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society to the idea of a more enchanted world.

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So this idea of this fringe, that's a bit enchanted, but who

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knows what's going on with it.

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I find really interesting.

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So that's another layer.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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And what you said trying to keep up the walls to keep people

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safe that there is this message inside of it that needs to get

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out.

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I think all Christians have made this statement.

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It's like oh yeah, saints on fire for Jesus, and I love the

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gospel, but we should just give it to ourselves.

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The commandment is to share the good news, so we've got to take

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it out of the walls of us and spread it to others, more now

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than ever.

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Also piggybacking off of Ashley , I wouldn't classify her as a

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demon, but what is she?

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Is she a forest spirit?

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Is she a fairy, as Brendan suspects that she is?

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In the beginning of the movie we hear something to the effect

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of that.

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You know, I've existed through many ages.

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Is she an angel?

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Is she a deity?

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Rebeccabecca, do you have any thoughts on that?

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Speaker 1: yeah, it is really interesting to think about what

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is ashley and you know, like you said, john, how does she fit in

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?

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She's one of the more interesting pieces of this story

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to think about.

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I tend to think that she talks about it as her forest, and I

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think she is kind of like the spirit of the forest.

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She represents nature, because there's this idea that you can

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communicate with God and experience his presence in

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nature, and perhaps that's kind of what Ashley is doing is

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almost like a guide into how you explore the world.

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She's a very spiritual being, which I find interesting and,

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john, I love that you mentioned that in our world, it seems like

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people are really waking up to spiritual aspects of life in

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general.

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I see that too, even in the psychology world.

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It seems like we've been in the fifth wave and that's all about

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neuroscience.

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I think we're kind of moving into really wanting spirituality

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to be integrated into our lives , whatever that looks like.

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It doesn't have to be Christianity, it could be

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Buddhism or Hinduism or whatever , but just a general awareness

00:19:34
of spirituality, which I find interesting.

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Speaker 3: And I don't think it was like that a few years ago.

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I think there's been quite a shift.

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I was at a book launch and I thought it would be

00:19:45
hyper-secular and the guy, although he didn't believe in

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any god, believed that there were thousands of unseen

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creatures everywhere that were spiritual and I thought that is

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the world that surrounds Kells.

00:20:00
In a way it's interesting.

00:20:02
The Anglo-Saxon Christians really debated what they do with

00:20:07
the old gods.

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Are they nothing?

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Are they demons?

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Are they different kinds of entities?

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There was a kind of a debate going on at the time because I

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guess they had to try to put things together now as

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Christians, with the world that they'd had before.

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A lot of people today go, oh you know, they kind of think

00:20:24
that they weren't as Christian as I think they were.

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Speaker 1: They were really wrestling, I agree with you,

00:20:30
because there was so much trying to come in and take away their

00:20:34
faith in a way or like morph and change it.

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I'm sure they got great comfort from books of the New Testament

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, assuming they had access to them.

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But the letters to the Corinthians I'm sure they got

00:20:46
great comfort from that, just because it's all about what do

00:20:50
you do with that?

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What do you do with pagan gods?

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How do you live your life?

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The letters from Paul dealt so much with that.

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How do you integrate all of that?

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Interesting questions.

00:21:01
Speaker 2: Let's go into a bit of the history.

00:21:04
Um gonna let you guys have the lead on this, because you're

00:21:07
much well versed in it than I am rebecca or john john, I would

00:21:11
love to hear from you if there's anything.

00:21:13
Speaker 1: I think I've talked already a little bit about broad

00:21:16
history, but from your perspective, was there anything

00:21:20
else that was left out?

00:21:22
Speaker 3: I don't know a huge amount.

00:21:23
I know more about King Alfred and what was happening in

00:21:28
England, but it mirrors quite a lot of the things that happen in

00:21:30
the world today.

00:21:31
We've got a small Christian community, external groups in

00:21:36
this case the Vikings, norsemen coming in to kill and to steal

00:21:41
from them.

00:21:42
I thought it was really interesting that King Alfred was

00:21:45
translating the Bible, but he was also a military man trying

00:21:49
to protect the country.

00:21:50
He was also trying to figure out where he's fusing the old

00:21:54
Germanic codes and then the Bible and how was he putting

00:21:58
those things together?

00:21:59
I think there's just that era of history.

00:22:02
There's lots of well, it's a forming of a people.

00:22:06
Really, I know more of the English side than the Irish, but

00:22:10
I imagine it's the same kind of process.

00:22:12
Something I wrote down and wanted to mention was I remember

00:22:16
, when I was about eight, someone reading the poem the

00:22:19
Dream of the Rude and rude is the word for cross in

00:22:24
Anglo-Saxon, and although it was an Anglo-Saxon poem, it was so

00:22:28
creative and weird that I was just like, wow, this is

00:22:31
incredible.

00:22:31
It's got all these pagan motifs , but they're put under Christ.

00:22:36
The whole poem is about the cross itself.

00:22:39
The actual wood is the woods experience, experience which is

00:22:42
just such a weird take on these things.

00:22:45
So I think there's just all these ideas that are flowing

00:22:48
around at the time, because you get that with beowulf as well,

00:22:52
which is similar period where they're getting all these pagan

00:22:56
ideas and they're trying to work with a thoroughly christian,

00:23:00
but they're using these pagan ideas, almost baptizing them in

00:23:04
a way.

00:23:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we can see.

00:23:06
Even too, it can be really dangerous to do that.

00:23:11
We can see that even today with certain large Christian

00:23:15
organizations trying to take more New Age views and practices

00:23:21
and somehow baptize them and make them Christian, and they

00:23:26
just aren't.

00:23:27
That can be difficult.

00:23:30
But things like meditation, which most of the world views as

00:23:34
secular and not Christian, is actually a Christian idea.

00:23:38
It is mentioned in the Bible, meditating on scripture.

00:23:41
It just looks different from what Buddhist meditation looks

00:23:47
like.

00:23:47
I think finding similarities is perfectly fine as long as it's

00:23:54
scripturally based.

00:23:55
The people of the time during this historical period had some

00:23:59
difficulties trying to do that as well.

00:24:01
Speaker 3: I'm sure we've all heard how easter was something

00:24:07
in the pagan world yeah, although a lot of that stuff has

00:24:09
been invented by atheists in order to debunk.

00:24:14
And then you look into it and you realize these things were a

00:24:16
lot more christian than they've given credit for it that's nice

00:24:19
to hear I heard a talk about christmas trees and they're

00:24:23
saying oh you know, it's really pagan.

00:24:24
But actually Boniface, who was the guy that cut down the

00:24:28
Christmas tree?

00:24:29
He did it to prove that this pagan god wasn't real.

00:24:32
So it wasn't a pagan thing, it was actually an anti-pagan thing

00:24:34
.

00:24:34
Then people years later go oh I see you're doing this pagan

00:24:38
thing and it's like, well, it's not actually pagan.

00:24:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what's interesting too, I find with

00:24:43
symbols like that, like a Christmas tree, is you kind of

00:24:47
make them what you want it to be .

00:24:49
It's kind of like how the Bible talks about you know.

00:24:53
It's the love of money that is the root of all evil, and money

00:24:58
itself can't be evil.

00:25:00
It's an easy misinterpretation.

00:25:02
It's an inanimate object.

00:25:05
It is neither good nor evil.

00:25:07
It is what we make of it that is good or evil, and same thing

00:25:12
with a Christmas tree or some of these other symbols.

00:25:14
You take it how you want to take it.

00:25:17
I think being careful too, though, about the scripture

00:25:21
talks about not causing your brother to stumble or be a

00:25:24
stumbling block for your brother .

00:25:26
Keeping that in mind, I think, is also important.

00:25:28
You mentioned a poem, which I thought was really fun, about

00:25:32
the cross from the woods perspective Fascinating.

00:25:35
It sounds really interesting.

00:25:36
I may go look that up, but there was another poem that's

00:25:38
actually nodded to here in the Secret of Kells, and that is the

00:25:44
cat.

00:25:45
Did you pick up on this, john?

00:25:47
Speaker 3: No, I didn't.

00:25:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, so his name was Pangerbon.

00:25:51
Pangerbon is an old Irish poem that a monk wrote about his

00:25:58
white cat.

00:25:59
Bon means white and Panger was the cat's name, so it's white

00:26:05
cat or white Panger.

00:26:06
It was an ode to the cat of like, oh you're so wonderful,

00:26:11
panger Bon, which I thought was really funny.

00:26:15
And how.

00:26:16
Even in the art of the Book of Kells there's quite a few

00:26:21
references to cats and mice, and I think at one point the mice

00:26:26
are even fighting over a Eucharist, which was pretty

00:26:29
funny.

00:26:29
So yeah, I thought that was a really fun little nod to the

00:26:34
time period.

00:26:36
Speaker 2: So all this talk of expelling the darkness and the

00:26:40
light, that's the overall theme.

00:26:41
The overall theme is hope.

00:26:42
Have either of you seen the actual book of Kells or a copy

00:26:48
of it?

00:26:49
Speaker 1: Yes, I have seen the physical copy.

00:26:52
It's kept in Trinity College in Dublin, Ireland.

00:26:56
In the story they were talking about, you know like be blinded

00:27:01
by its beauty and sinners being saved, which is, of course, very

00:27:06
dramatic, but there is something ethereal about it.

00:27:11
It is absolutely gorgeous to see, particularly the gold they

00:27:16
used.

00:27:16
I don't remember if it was gold paint or gold leaf, but it

00:27:20
still shimmers.

00:27:20
It's beautiful, beautiful, and they keep the it's in this teeny

00:27:25
, tiny little room.

00:27:26
They only let so many people in at a time and it's really dark

00:27:29
to protect the pages.

00:27:30
They change the page every so often, so if you go multiple

00:27:34
times you might get to see different pages of the book.

00:27:37
It is gorgeous.

00:27:40
It's worth it to make a trip to Dublin to go see it.

00:27:44
Speaker 3: I've not seen it.

00:27:44
I'd love to.

00:27:45
I've seen reproductions in books, but not the actual book.

00:27:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's worth it, john, If you can get over there

00:27:52
to Dublin.

00:27:53
Speaker 3: It's not far from us really.

00:27:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot closer than we are.

00:27:58
Speaker 2: Let's talk about the character of Brendan a little

00:28:01
bit.

00:28:02
He is a boy living in the Abbott.

00:28:05
He doesn't have a quote-unquote family.

00:28:07
Do they say whatever happened to him?

00:28:09
Or he just doesn't have parents .

00:28:12
Speaker 1: I don't think they said specifically what happened,

00:28:14
just that he doesn't have parents.

00:28:15
He tells Ashley at one point that he doesn't have family, but

00:28:19
he does have an uncle.

00:28:20
Yeah, yeah, I thought that was interesting.

00:28:22
Speaker 2: Maybe an absent uncle at the time.

00:28:25
Speaker 3: Although the uncle is doing his best in his own mind

00:28:28
to protect him, he might not be getting it right.

00:28:31
His motive is good.

00:28:32
It forms a lovely connection with him and Ashley.

00:28:34
That's the thing that tips her into engaging with him rather

00:28:39
than seeing him as a threat.

00:28:41
Speaker 2: Rebecca, when you were reading the synopsis, we

00:28:44
know that Ren Hessell has come over his fears, come over his

00:28:46
doubts.

00:28:47
That is his own personal journey throughout this entire

00:28:51
movie and he wants to be an illustrator, but he doesn't

00:28:56
think that he has the talent to do so until he starts staying

00:29:02
more in touch with Brother Aiden , and Brother Aiden knows that

00:29:05
he has a keen interest in what he's doing and he says if you

00:29:10
want to help, I will teach you how to scribe.

00:29:13
We'll get the feathers from the goose to make the writing

00:29:17
utensils and we'll make the ink Towards the end of the movie.

00:29:21
We this like time of like regression, where aiden and

00:29:26
rendon go out from the wall after the vikings have come in

00:29:31
and invaded and they're like a house out in the woods and you

00:29:35
see them working on this continuously.

00:29:37
There's a long passage of time because we see like very grown

00:29:41
up rendon by the time that he comes back to the abbey to see

00:29:46
his uncle.

00:29:46
Do you know, time wise, how long that took?

00:29:51
Speaker 1: I would imagine he was probably eight when he was

00:29:55
living at the abbey and then, I don't know, it seemed like it

00:30:00
could have been 10 years more like 20 maybe 10 to 20.

00:30:03
Yeah, so he could have been 28 by the time he came back.

00:30:06
But yeah, it didn't look like there was a specific time.

00:30:10
Speaker 2: I didn't pick up on anything anyway is there any

00:30:12
other scene that stood out to you in this movie?

00:30:15
Speaker 1: to go off of what you started talking about, josh,

00:30:18
with brendan.

00:30:19
He, he does.

00:30:21
He, you're right, he really does struggle within himself to

00:30:24
become an illustrator, to think he's good enough.

00:30:27
We all talk about him fighting our demons.

00:30:30
In this case, he actually literally went and did that.

00:30:34
He went into the cave of Krom Kruik, if you want to say he's

00:30:38
one of the villains.

00:30:39
In a way, it almost seems like he's fighting with himself,

00:30:43
though, because it's not until he goes and defeats Kromkruik or

00:30:49
the serpent, which is interesting in and of itself, to

00:30:52
sort of nod to the devil, satan , evil, whatever you want to

00:30:56
call it.

00:30:56
I know it has different significance in pagan symbolism.

00:31:00
I don't know what that is, but I know it's different.

00:31:03
So he goes in and Brendan really defeats that part, and

00:31:07
then when he comes out on the other side, he feels more

00:31:10
confident and he can create the art now.

00:31:13
So it's like that's kind of his journey of feeling more

00:31:18
confident about himself.

00:31:19
Speaker 3: That makes sense.

00:31:20
It's like the coming of age thing.

00:31:21
You have to go through struggle .

00:31:23
He has to leave the Abbey in order to find out who he is,

00:31:28
what he's doing, so he can't just be.

00:31:31
He'll never be able to do that until he leaves, until he works

00:31:36
out who he is, and then come back.

00:31:38
And it's the encouragement of Aidan that is the real thing

00:31:42
there, because they both see value in the book, which I think

00:31:46
his uncle knows, but he's forgotten.

00:31:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, and how we can be so often like the abbot in

00:31:53
that we forget the hope that the word brings and we can become

00:31:58
so focused on building up the walls of our heart and of our

00:32:02
lives, really shutting the darkness out or trying to in our

00:32:07
own strength, when really, if we just rely on the hope of the

00:32:12
Gospels and being in community with God, that's where true

00:32:17
strength comes from, not from ourselves and what we can do.

00:32:20
And the abbot gets it in the end he does, and hopefully so do

00:32:25
we.

00:32:27
Speaker 2: John, any points that you want to make sure that we

00:32:30
touch upon that we haven't already the idea of imagination.

00:32:33
Speaker 3: The faith is an imaginative faith.

00:32:35
They're not just copyists of the bible, which would be a

00:32:39
perfectly legitimate exercise and more efficient.

00:32:43
Now they are taking it and they are creating a beautiful object

00:32:48
, an imaginative object, and at the heart of this is imagination

00:32:54
.

00:32:54
They're not going to be able to push back the vikings who

00:32:57
eventually became christian right?

00:32:59
I often say to some of my somali friends that talk about

00:33:03
violence in their culture and say well, you know how peaceful

00:33:07
the swed are.

00:33:08
That wasn't what they were.

00:33:10
They've gone from being like we don't get involved in new wars

00:33:18
today compared with what they were.

00:33:19
And I think that it's the imaginative.

00:33:20
So it's not just.

00:33:20
Here is the truth in a beautiful wrapper.

00:33:23
That's really important.

00:33:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that goes along with Jesus telling

00:33:28
stories and parables.

00:33:29
He was using his creativity to share the gospel and in the same

00:33:33
way, the monks were using beauty and creativity to share

00:33:39
the gospel as well.

00:33:40
I think the early Christians really leaned into creativity

00:33:46
and imagination and partnership with God more than we do today.

00:33:53
Maybe that's what it is, but it feels like that attention to

00:33:58
detail and beauty that is still used today in our movies and

00:34:03
other art that we produce, but they truly knew how to partner

00:34:08
with God and create something absolutely stunning.

00:34:14
Speaker 2: So we hope this episode has been a big

00:34:16
encouragement to you, maybe a bit of a history lesson as well.

00:34:19
We want to thank John for being with us today.

00:34:22
John, for those who want to keep up with you or find out

00:34:26
more information about Jazz Cow, where can they go?

00:34:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the best place for jazz cow is jazz

00:34:31
cowcouk, jazz cowcouk, and there you can find link to a

00:34:38
newsletter.

00:34:39
You can find the notify me when we launch on kickstarter button

00:34:44
and read a bit about jazz cow, my company's quirky motion

00:34:49
q-u-i-r-k-y, m-o-t-i-o-n.

00:34:52
That's where our social media stuff is.

00:34:54
Feel free to drop me a message and, um, I, I will respond.

00:35:00
Probably I'm not very good at it, but I will respond.

00:35:04
I'll intend to anyway.

00:35:08
Speaker 2: Well, we'll have the links to all of that down in the

00:35:11
description.

00:35:12
Go ahead and support that project.

00:35:14
Keep up with what you're doing.

00:35:15
Just stay up to the know Until next time.

00:35:20
Keep those halos shiny and stay holy, my friends you.

The Spiritual and Artistic Worlds of The Secret of Kells

Faith, Fireplaces, and Waiting